Discussions With Don
The following is a discussion via email that a Christian named Donald and I had regarding whether being gay is a sin or not (that is, the fact of being gay is a sin, not just the fact of performing homosexual acts). Donald is a very educated man and skilled in the Bible. His remarks are thoughtful and not confrontational. I'm including our conversation here for those who may find it interesting.
From: Donald
Sent: Thursday, January 1
To: author@gaychristiansbestfriend.com
Subject: Your article on Whitewashed Tombs
I have a question for you regarding your article. I have multiple friends who are gay. I spend time with them. I also share the gospel with them. (None of them are in the church in any way.)
I was reading the following article: http://www.gaychristiansbestfriend.com/whitetombs.php and I have a question about your premise, aka, the way you view your own statements. You say, "Anybody who tells gay or Lesbian people they cannot be Christian if they are gay or that God and Jesus have rejected them, that person is in serious trouble with God and their souls are in danger of losing that very salvation they so proudly withhold from others."
Would you equate "[telling] people they cannot be Christian if they are gay" and not sharing the gospel with them at all, to be the same in nature as sharing the gospel with them, but also stating that conforming to the image of Christ requires change?
In other words, I believe that it is perfectly possible for a gay person to be saved, and I pray for that for my friends. But I also believe that true salvation comes with a desire to be "changed into his image" as it says in http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-18.htm.
As an alternative example, if I had an unsaved friend who always bragged about cheating on his taxes, I wouldn't tell him, "If you want to be a Christian, you must go and refile all of your taxes." That is works salvation. But, if he did respond to the gospel, as a part of the discipleship process, I should a)encourage him to file his correct taxes from now on, and b)encourage him to make right that which he had done wrong.
So to summarize, do you consider the two statements equal? Is it the same to say "Change and be saved" as it is to say, "Be saved, then change"?
Thanks for you consideration,
Donald
On Sat, Jan 20, Jerald L. Brown <author@gaychristiansbestfriend.com> wrote:
Hi Donald,
Thank you for your email. I appreciate you asking a question about my statement, and hope this email will answer it satisfactorily.
A person is saved first. And then, as he lives with Christ, he is conformed more and more into the image of Christ, so that he becomes more and more Christ-like. Salvation first, changing second.
Before I go further, let me describe a problem people have in discussing these matters. When a person says in general “Christian” or “Jew,” if there were only one Christian or only one Jew, then there would be no problem. But there are millions of Christians and millions of Jews, no two alike. So no matter what we say about Christians and Jews in general, there will be many exceptions to the statement.
Jews rejected Jesus as Christ. Yet many Jews accepted Jesus as Christ, and that is why we have the Christian church today. Not all Jews rejected Jesus, but many in the Jewish leadership did reject him. Nicodemas was in the Jewish leadership, but he accepted Christ; even there is an exception. The Jewish leadership in general rejected Jesus. Now a person cannot be a leader if he has no follower. Therefore, many followers of the Jewish leadership rejected Jesus, too. But many did not. If I were to write about the Jews and their rejection of Jesus, you would have to understand I was talking about those Jews who did reject Jesus, and not those Jews who accepted Jesus.
In the same way, we have millions of Christians who are teaching different things about God, the Bible, Jesus and salvation. When I give dire warning to certain Christians that they are in imminent danger of God’s judgment, you need to understand I’m talking to those Christians and not to all Christians.
The Bible is very clear about what God wants us Gentiles to do in a faithful relationship with Him.
Matthew 22:26-40
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Jesus was speaking in his authority as Son of God and Savior of the world. This is what he said: Everything written in the Bible comes from two commandments: Love God above all else and Love your neighbor as yourself. If you keep those commandments, you have fulfilled God’s expectation of you. That is also the way to judge whether your church doctrine is true or not. If your church doctrine causes you to harm other people, then your church doctrine is in error.
Everybody thinks (or claims) their church doctrine is based on the Bible. For 1300 years (c. 350 – 1650 AD) the Roman church taught that earth was the center of the universe, and the sun, moon and stars revolved around it. They got that theory from others (Ptolemy) but they “proved” it from the Bible. As a result, they threatened Galileo Galilei with death and anyone else who disagreed with them on this issue. Likewise the Southern Baptist church taught that American slavery was OK and approved by God. They proved that doctrine from the Bible. They recanted that doctrine recently, in the 1970s, I think. The point is, the Christian church sometimes have erroneous doctrines that hurt other people but they justify the doctrine by scripture. You know it’s a bad doctrine when it hurts other people.
Also we know it’s a bad doctrine when it takes judgment away from God and puts it in our own hands.
Being gay is a condition one is born with, such as being black. Gay people cannot change it. The impossibility of change has been demonstrated over and over. When I say “born with,” I mean it occurs naturally. It’s not like sin, but like height. Scientists have not proven that a person is born gay, but they have shown that “it looks that way,” and they cannot prove it untrue. You’re left with the testimony of gay people themselves. None of them claim to have chosen that life style. They are acting on their own natural instincts... not like sin but like hunger.
Sinfulness hurts other people. Being gay loves and supports other people of the same gender.
Along comes certain Christians who say either “You cannot be saved because you are gay,” or else, “You cannot please God no matter how hard you try because being gay is a sin. You must stop being gay first.” That is a hateful, harmful doctrine which goes against the teaching of Jesus. Those are the people I’m warning that they are in danger of God’s wrath, because of their “biblical” doctrine. In order for their doctrine to be true, then being gay must be a choice. Therefore they deny the testimony of scientists and gay people themselves – that they never chose that lifestyle – in order to make their own doctrine right.
Some Christian gays who come under that doctrine leave the church, leave God and commit suicide. Not all of them of course, but many do. That doctrine kills people.
Jesus talks about these people in Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus said,
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23).
Those rejected people prophesied in the name of Jesus, drove out demons in the name of Jesus and performed miracles in the name of Jesus. No matter how closely associated were they to Jesus and the church, Jesus rejected them. In the same way, people who call themselves Christians and preach in the name of Jesus that gays cannot please God and still be gay no matter what they do, no matter how much they believe God and accept Jesus, those Christians are the ones whom God will judge.
I know what the Bible says; I know about the scriptures used to justify hatred of gay people. The way to test your understanding of the Bible is to apply Matthew 22:26-40 to it. Are you loving your neighbor as yourself? Would you like to be treated like that?
I wrote a book, Key to Biblical Doctrine. I hope you’re able to get it and read it. If you have trouble finding it but want to read it, please let me know.
Best wishes, and thank you for your inquiry.
Jerry Brown
Los Angeles, CA
From: Donald
Sent: Friday, January 20
To: Jerald L. Brown
Subject: Re: Your article on Whitewashed Tombs
Jerry,
I appreciate your response, and was very glad to see a rational reply. :) I know what you mean about this being a topic where the conversation can turn ugly quickly.
I now understand your position better, but you have also given me a new question: Does the fact that you don't have a choice mean that it isn't sin?
There are two sides to this question I would point to in explanation of my question.
The first is that there are multiple examples (enough to base a doctrine upon) in the bible of God hardening the heart, and allowing a person to act sinfully. Examples that spring readily to mind are Pharaoh, (Exodus 4:21... http://msb.to/Ex4:21) and the taking of Israel (Joshua 11:20... http://msb.to/Jos11:20). But God also tells us that he is not the author of sin (Psalm 81:8-16... http://msb.to/Ps81:8) even in the midst of hardening their hearts.
So point 1 - God hardened their hearts, but they were still responsible for their sin.
The second is related to salvation. It is God who chose us (John 15:16... http://msb.to/Jn15:16), and he is the one that causes us to recognize his holiness so that we come to him for salvation (Romans 8:29-30... http://msb.to/Ro8:29).
So in this case, there is some element of salvation where the choice belongs to God, and not to us (to what degree is a large theological debate, but there is definitely agreement that it is in the bible).
So point 2 - Turning from our sin is not entirely dependent upon our own choices.
With those two points in mind, I restate my question: Can you support from scripture that the absence of choice equates to the absence of sin?
Thank you again for your reply, and I will definitely look for your book to understand your position more fully.
Donald
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012, Jerald L. Brown <author@gaychristiansbestfriend.com> wrote:
Hi Donald.
Thank you for your further questions and for giving me to opportunity to respond to them.
Pharaoh did not sin because his heart was hardened. He did not repent because his heart was hardened. [Editor's note: the previous two sentences means Pharoah was punished for his sin, not for having a hard heart. The hard heart simply kept him from repenting.] God had already decided to punish Pharaoh and all Egypt for their sins. God prevented Pharaoh from repenting and thereby claiming a technicality to excuse him from punishment. God said to Abram in Genesis 15:13-14, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves.” Hundreds of years before the Exodus, God told Abram he would punish Egypt for enslaving the Jews. The only reason to harden Pharaoh’s heart was to prevent him from repenting to escape punishment when he was going to be punished anyway.
The Exodus occurred around 3500-4000 years ago, and reporting on it is brief. We would be careless to draw too much doctrine or inference from what is written about it. I think it is sufficient to say that God decided what he was going to do and it was appropriate to do what he did. Our place, I think, is to acknowledge God’s righteousness, judgment, mercy and love. Whether we understand certain things about God or not, we are always expected to accept and praise him on every account. We do not judge God, but we learn from him.
As for the Hivites in Joshua 11:20, the Bible says, “For it was the LORD himself who hardened [the Hivites’] hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy.” God did not destroy them because their hearts was hardened. God had determined to destroy them long before that (Gen 15:18-19) along with the other six nations in Canaan (Deuteronomy 7:1-2). He hardened their hearts to use this as a means to bring about his judgment on them. Just as a potter may pick up one of his pots and break it if it does not please him (Jeremiah 18:1-6), so God may deal as he wishes to those who do not please him. God destroys others without bringing guilt to himself because God is the creator, judge, master and owner of all.
Jesus said this about people coming to him:
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.” (NIV) The KJV says “...I will in no wise cast out.”
Put into my own words, Jesus said, “He who comes to me I will not reject for any reason whatsoever.”
John 6:44, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”
John 10:30, “I and my Father are One.”
Paul said,
Romans 10:11, “For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him”
Galatians 3:28, “ there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Romans 14:3-4, “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
So I say, how dare anyone, Christian or not, tell a gay Christian that God rejects him or finds fault for any reason whatsoever. It is God who judges, and God has made us all clean.
You asked, “Can you support from scripture that the absence of choice equates to the absence of sin?” I don’t know that I should have to do that. You should already know the answer for yourself.
The Christian church has created (i.e. “identified”) two types of sin: natural sin and willful sin. The natural sin (they say) is inherited from Adam. Rom 5:12, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” and v 14, “death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command.”
And so, the “sin nature” passed to all people through Adam. But Paul explains further, v. 18-19, “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”
So therefore, just as the act of Adam brought sin to you and me without our knowledge and desire, so the death of Jesus paid for Adam’s sin for all men, saved or unsaved, without their knowledge and desire.
There remains now only willful sins for which we are responsible. Rom 3:23, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” We have all sinned; we have all fallen short of God.
John deals with sin, too.
1 Jo 5:17, “All wrongdoing is sin.”
1 Jo 3:4, “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.”
1 Jo 3:10, “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”
Every one of those descriptions of sin described by John is something one does, not something one is.
You do not tell a person that because he is black (no choice), God rejects him. Because he has a big nose (no choice), God rejects him. Or because he is gay (no choice), God rejects him – for any reason or in any way.
Remember what I said in my previous email,
Matthew 22:26-40
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Jesus was speaking in his authority as Son of God and Savior of the world. This is what he said: Everything written in the Bible comes from two commandments: Love God above all else and Love your neighbor as yourself.
A gay person is someone who is drawn to another person of the same gender. He wants to love that person. He wants to nourish and support that person. He wants to live the rest of his life with that person.
Hatred is sin. This gay person wants to love.
Some Christians tell that person, “Because you don’t love in the same way I do, therefore God has rejected you and God has rejected your love of your fellow man.” Those are the Christians who are in deadly peril. They risk being rejected by God themselves, based on the scriptures Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 13:24-43.
To answer another question, Yes, I’m telling you that being gay is not a sin. Christians who say it is a sin have deceived the elect, are wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, and in danger of judgment by God.
Do feel free to ask me further questions, if you please.
Jerry Brown
Los Angeles, CA
From: Donald
Sent: Friday, January 25
To: Jerald L. Brown
Subject: Re: Your article on Whitewashed Tombs
Jerald,
I wrote the below, and then felt that I should come back to the top and explain my intentions. I truly desire to understand your thinking and your study of scripture.
I know that you have done a lot of research and study in this area, but some of it seems to conflict with my own understanding. My goal is to understand what you believe, so that I can 1) see whether it agrees with scripture, and 2) see whether it is internally consistent. (i.e. ensuring for myself that you do not hold up two opposing thoughts as true. An example of what I mean would be saying in one place "God is all powerful" and in another place "God cannot do something." The two can not both be true at the same time.)
My goal in this is to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 who "examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."
Donald
- - - - - - - - - -
I'm sure its obvious by now that I disagree with your point (that being gay is not a sin), but at the same time, I am trying to remain open to conversation, and hearing your view.
Quoting you above: "You asked, “Can you support from scripture that the absence of choice equates to the absence of sin?” I don’t know that I should have to do that. You should already know the answer for yourself."
and my answer would be: "But it is important that you know for yourself." I believe that the bible does condemn sin that is done "without choice" and that the acts of Pharaoh were sinful
In Isaiah 10 God says on one hand " 5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger — the staff in their hands is My wrath. 6 I will send him against a godless nation; I will command him to go against a people destined for My rage," but immediately after that says: "12 But when the Lord finishes all His work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for his arrogant acts and the proud look in his eyes.”
So even though it was God's Wrath, and his Command, he still punished the king of Assyria, because it was a sinful act.
However, I would like to set that aside for a moment, and pursue a different line of inquiry. If we take for the moment, that your interpretation is true, and that it can only be sin when it is made by choice, I still have a remaining question. What of those people who would not claim to be born homosexual? In other words, they choose homosexuality because they prefer it, even though the would say that they are (or were born) heterosexual?
This is not an imaginary scenario. There are many gay people who would state that they are generally oriented heterosexually. In fact, one common way for people to identify themselves is along a "scale" of homosexuality, from preferring the same, to preferring both, to preferring the other. (One place to find that info is in the tables at the end of the following report: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf)
Another well known contributor to homosexuality (i.e. the % for the category is much higher than the general population) is the victims of sexual abuse, especially as children. There is a clear correlation to the sin of others having an effect on the outcome of the sinned-against person's life.
In these cases, they are choosing a lifestyle that is not what God has designed for them. After they have been converted, would you not encourage them to return to a heterosexual lifestyle? Or at least to cease from a homosexual lifestyle?
And if this is true, should you not be calling all homosexuals to turn from heterosexual relationships, and pursue the path that God created them for?
So all of my "thinking on paper" so that you can understand my line of thought, leads me to the following questions:
Can homosexuality be sin for some (since it is a choice)? If not, why is this not the case?
Doesn't your line of reasoning also require that some heterosexual marriages would be sinful (for which I would find no biblical support)? If so, why does your position not imply this?
Thanks again for your time, and for helping me to understand your position.
Donald
On Sat, Feb 02, Jerald L. Brown <author@gaychristiansbestfriend.com> wrote:
Hi Donald,
It’s been so long since you wrote to me, you may want to review your own email (below) before reading my response.
Many of your questions have already been answered in my previous email. But I’ll remind you of what I said.
You said, “its obvious by now that I disagree with your point” Of course you do. Every time somebody hears something different from their own church doctrine, they immediately assume it’s impossible for them to be wrong, for their church to be wrong, therefore the only alternative is for the other person to be wrong. All church doctrines are based on the Bible, but too many of them use the Bible to justify their beliefs rather than the other way around. People in every church denomination think the same way, that theirs is the only true and right way, but it’s impossible for every church’s doctrine to be 100% accurate, because many of them conflict with other churches’ doctrines. That’s what I explained earlier in my first email when I spoke of the church’s stand on the geocentric universe and on American slavery.
To overcome your own bias and blind obedience, you need to stop looking at how your church justifies its doctrines from the bible and start reading the Bible on its own merit. That is, rather than learning your church’s doctrine and then seeing where it’s justified in the Bible, it should be the other way around. You should go to the Bible first, read it, believe it and let that be your guide to church doctrines. I think you will probably say, “I do read the Bible and let that be my guide.” Have you? Have you read the Bible straight through one time? Have you read it through 20 times, as I have? Have you studied the Bible for 50 years, as I have? I’m not saying I am an expert on the Bible, nor do I say I am perfect in my thoughts and opinions. But I do say I know it now better than I used to know it. Have you put in sufficient time in true Bible study to make such judgments as to deny gay Christians their rightful stand before God? Are you innocent before God in that?
I explain all this in my book, Key to Biblical Doctrine, which I mentioned earlier. If you had read that book, these emails would be unnecessary.
---
Every time you try to prove God punishes sin that is done without choice, you cite examples of God punishing sin that was done by choice. You need to think through your arguments more. Do you think Assyria had done nothing to merit God’s wrath? Do you think these innocent people were just sitting around and all of a sudden God dumped on them? The scripture you quoted said Assyria is a “godless nation.” Do you not know that godlessness is a choice? Don’t you understand that God reveals himself to all people, and they reject him by decision, by choice? Your quote further says, “I will punish the king of Assyria for his arrogant acts and the proud look in his eyes.” Do you not understand that “arrogant acts” are things you do, not things you are? The phrase “proud look in his eyes” is a euphemism. Do you know what the euphemism means? In this case, it is standing up against God in defiance to him. That is a sinful act.
I think you cannot find any place where the Bible calls anything anybody sinful because of what they are, instead of what they do. If God judged that way, he would be an unjust God, punishing the innocent with the guilty. Even “hating your brother” is something you do in your heart, an action you take. Lusting after another person is something you do in your heart, not something you are.
The church once tried to define sin the way you do. They said the “mark of Cain” (Gen 4:15) was to make him into a black man. They said that all black people are descended from Cain. This was part of the reason American Christians used to justify slavery. That is a case where a person would be condemned by God because of what he was, rather than what he did. I think most Christians today discard that line of reasoning.
---
The reason it’s important for Christians to prove homosexuality is a choice is because if it’s not a choice, then their church doctrine is wrong. God forbid that a church doctrine should be wrong! No, much better to send another person to hell, or interrupt his access to God than to admit his church doctrine is wrong. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for that very action, in Matthew 23:13.
There is no lie so blatant,
no depravity so vile,
no ignorance so inexcusable,
no argument so unreasoned,
that man will not embrace
if it keeps him from admitting
that he is wrong.
In examining gay people, you’re got to remember they are human, like you, and not something else. If you recognize qualities in yourself that you forgive and excuse, then you must allow those same qualities in other people that you forgive and excuse.
People began to sexually mature around 10-12 years old. That allows the world 10-12 years of indoctrination before the child even begins to realize there is such a thing as sexuality. Is it any wonder than young gay people are confused when they start to discover who they are? For 10+ years, by word, example, sound, and lesson they are taught that they are heterosexual. Their parents, their siblings, their extended family of uncles, aunts, and cousins, their church, their church friends, their school friends, their teachers, the magazines they read, the billboards they see, and the television programs they watch, all tell the homosexual children that they are heterosexual. How can young gays not be confused? Would you be understanding to yourself if that were done to you?
Homosexuals – gays – assume at first they are straight. When they have gay tendencies, they deny the tendencies’ desire for action and even the possibility of its existence. But just as a black person cannot look in the mirror and see white no matter how hard he tries, the gays cannot forever deny it. For some gays, they think they are shameful and sinful because of the gift God gave them – thanks to your church doctrine – and they deny its expression for years, if not forever. Many times they kill themselves, because they cannot take the guilt. Many commit themselves to psychiatric care for aversion therapy. But for many other gays, there comes a time when they decide to stop pretending. They decide to act out who they are. They decide be be true to themselves. That is the decision gay people make. They don’t decide to be gay. They do decide to stop pretending they are not gay.
Sometimes it’s not easy for gays to make the decision to stop pretending to be gay. Sometimes they say they are bisexual, leaving the door open in other people’s minds that they are OK. Sometimes they finally make that decision in their 70’s. I’ve met a few of those. Sometimes they admit to themselves they are gay and secretly be gay, but to their family and friends, they pretend to be “straight,” having fake girlfriends and so on.
It’s possible for people to have sex with whomever or whatever they want – and they do. God is not stopping them. It’s possible for straight people to have gay sex. It’s possible for gay people to have straight sex. It’s possible for people to have sex with animals or objects. For those crossovers, God is the judge, not I. All I tell them is that God loves them and sent his Son Jesus to die for their sins; I tell them that salvation is through faith in Jesus. It is the Spirit and the Father who moves their heart to do right; not I.
There is another condition called bisexuality. That is when the man or woman is attracted to both genders. Again, not my call. God created all versions of plants and animals. Who is to tell him he may not create all types of humanity to please himself? Each serves its own purpose, and it is God who is the judge. I mentioned this judgment part in an earlier email.
---
You said,
My goal in this is to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 who "examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."
That’s good. To help you in your way, I recommend the book, Key to Biblical Doctrine. It is Bible based and will answer many of your questions.
If you cannot find a copy, of that book, I will send you a book on one condition: that you PROMISE me you will read it through.
Otherwise, read the Bible and believe what it says over what you believe in your church doctrine.
If Jesus says, “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:36-40), believe that over your church doctrine.
If the Jesus says, “Judge not that ye be not judged,” (Matthew 7:1), believe that over your church doctrine.
If the Bible says, “Who are you to judge another man’s servant?” (Romans 14:4), believe that over your church doctrine.
It’s only takes a decision to believe the Bible first. It only takes a little humility to believe that you and your church could be wrong on this issue.
Best wishes and good luck on your journey. God love you.
Jerry Brown
Los Angeles, CA
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